THE PURPOSE DRIVENCHURCH NIGHTMARE!
Comments added to beginning by Despatch Editor
W. B. Howard
Extract from Despatch Magazine Vol. 13:2 [June 2001] Entire magazine online
If our readers absorb no more than this article from the whole of the June Despatch, then they would have done well!
We urge you to take especial note of the following material, as it contains info. which is almost unbelievable! When we listened to the audio tapes from which we have gathered the material herein, I had a strong realization that we were listening to a description of the Antichrist system seeking to obliterate from the earth Biblical Christianity and the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! This is something so innovative and efficient that one is immediately enlightened to the fact that brilliant brains have planned all this out, and that really no group of men could be so blasted clever! Behind this planning an ancient, evil conductor holds the baton to which tune these people are playing. What am I getting keyed up about here? RICK WARREN and the Purpose-Driven Church programs for church expansion!!! Also heavily interacting is BILL HYBELS and his church expansion programs. We will give our readers the following transcript, straight from the audios of RADIO LIBERTY, USA, with Dr Stanley Monteith interviewing Robert Klenck, tapes entitled, Marketing Christianity One and Two.
A business consultant, who has been working with the international bankers, has designed the Purpose-Driven Church programs. Robert Klenck reveals a sinister involvement with the Rockefellers. The robbing of the Gospel of such matters as awareness of sin, need to repent and become righteous in Gods enabling, the sacrifice of Christs Blood for remission of sin, separation from the evil world etc is what makes the success of the Purpose-Driven Church program possible. Therefore we Bible Christians are encountering a highly effective way of defeating Christianity by means of enticing churches to seek numbers, power, money (from tithes and donations etc), and very large buildings. The enticement includes the dialectic approach which makes Christians value meeting the needs of an ungodly society, instead of standing firm on the truths of Gods Word and obeying His commands - and knowingly preaching unpopular messages which lead to spiritual repentance. The success in the worlds eyes can be very great by giving way to these business programs, the masses are flocking to be in churches which bring a popular message, give them rock music, lovely buildings and accommodating, pleasant, worldly- wise preachers. These programs are here in Australia, believers. Already in the USA some 150,000 pastors have been trained up in these awesomely powerful brainwashing programs. The most alarming matter presented by Robert Klenck is the revealing of the PROFILING and DATA BASING of congregations for the political powers of the New World Order. Also the COVENANTS which people sign which bind them to the Purpose-Driven Church programs they will refuse to turn against these Change-Agents because the na´ve congregations feel they will be denying Christ Jesus if they do so!
Dean Gotcher is mentioned in this transcript we have a video of his available taken
from the NTSC format to our PAL version. ($10 including postage and handling within Aust.
OurAlpha Expose material relates both to this transcript and Dean Gotcher another brain washing technique. Material available from our site, use the online search engine or write to us for details.
[Segments have been removed that were unimportant to the subject i.e. extraneous chatter.]
TRANSCRIPTION OF AUDIO TAPE JUNE, 2001.
SIDE ONE OF TAPE NUMBER 1.
DR. STANLEY MONTEITH WITH ROBERT KLENCK.
INTRODUCTION BY DR. MONTEITH his background as an orthopedic surgeon. Dr Monteith introduces Dr. Robert Klenck.
There is a conscious, organized effort to change the message and the music of the Christian Church to make it more acceptable to the world. Well, I always thought Christianity was supposed to transform the world, but of course if you look you can see whats happening today and you look at the statistics on divorce in the church well, it is just as much in the church as it is outside the church maybe even more. As far as abortion, as far as so many other things that go on, there is not much difference between the church and society as a whole.
Is that what God intended? I thought that Christianity was supposed to transform individuals and not make them more like the world. One thing that happened, and I think increasingly I hear this from across the country, is that the music of the church has changed and instead of the great hymns of Christendom now we have a rock band and a loud beat because of course, it will appeal to the young people. We justify that because we want to get the young people into the church and that of course we talk about things like sin. Oh we dont want to tell people they are sinners. After all thats going to make them feel bad about themselves and hurt their self-esteem.
In fact, apparently Robert Schuller, who is a very, very successful minister, has said You know, you would never want to tell them they were a sinner, and so we no longer talk about hell or damnation or the fact that we really need a Saviour we make ourselves feel good about ourselves and that is going to get us into church. But is it going to change our lives? Is it going to transform society?
Well, we are going to be talking about this. Dr. Klenck has done a lot of work, a lot of study on this and he is one of the most articulate spokesmen on this most important of the subjects.
Bob, (Dr. Klenck,) I thank you for being with us this evening.
(For the benefit of transcription, Dr. Monteith will be identified as D.M. and Dr. Klenck as B.K.)
B.K.: You are very welcome.
D.M.: Bob has worked with us, his wife Tammy has been working with us but she is not going to be with us tonight. She is into a lot of other very, very important issues. But why dont you tell our listeners how you got involved in this. Why have you put the time and study into this and of course, what you found so you just go ahead and just start telling us why you have began to study this so called Church Growth Movement that is to make Christianity more palatable to people and bring them into the church.
B.K.: Back in 1993 is when the Lord drew us to Him and we became saved and then shortly after that we were in a small Baptist Church and this was in 1994. We were baptized there and then the pastor started to bring some changes into the church. He brought in material from Pastor Rick Warren apparently he had gone to some conferences with Pastor Warren and was really touting his material, touting his (Rick Warrens) whole program and implementing all of it in a very rapid fashion at the church. He (the pastor) was telling us stories about how the little small church was going to grow to huge numbers and also was boosting me into leadership. He wanted me to be, sort of, his right hand man and be close to him from the ground floor and twenty years from now we would be able to look back and look on this huge ministry and say that we had been there, you know, right from the beginning all along.
But quite a few changes started to happen in the church. The music was changing was part of it, bigger changes that he was doing, he took the pews out of the sanctuary and replaced those with chairs. They restructured, what they called discipleship and they started to put us on tracks to leadership we had to go through courses and they implemented 101, 201 and 301 courses that they wanted everybody in the church to be involved with the courses and they would do assessments at the end, tests and tests and assessments of us, also required that people sign covenants in order to move on to the next level which of course in the Scripture we are commanded not to sign any covenants because it says that let our yes be yes and our nay be nay any more than this comes of evil.
D.M.: Alright, now of course did you notice that they were sort of changing the structure of the service, in other words - and the minister, instead of coming in a coat and tie was coming in more casual dress and people certainly were encouraged, at least indirectly, to be casual in their approach to the services?
B.K.: Yes, that is a very big part of it as well, is the right to not be intimidating to so called seekers unchurched people churched and unchurched people trying to bring in more unchurched and again trying to make it so that it was more of a comfortable more of an entertaining type of service.
They started to bring in more drama actually, even the day that we were baptized the pastor dramatized the point actually chained himself to the pulpit he was chained to the pulpit during the entire service. It wasnt until somebody actually brought the key it was Jesus Christ and unlocked him from the bondage of his chains things like that.
D.M.: What you are getting was more of entertainment rather than relying upon the Christian message. Entertainment things that would hold peoples attention, a drama, a video, a television and things of that sort. Is that what they were sort of getting into?
D.M.: What about dance and other things of that sort?
B.K.: Well we werent there all that long, so we saw a lot of these being implemented and then we left because the main reason we left was 2 reasons:
(1) That he was going away from deep Scriptural teaching much more superficial messages. He would give a hand out which had a few fill in blanks and basically once you fill in the four blanks which were on handout, that meant the sermon was over.
D.M.: But of course now, wasnt this really trying to get people into church wasnt the motivation behind it certainly a good one, in other words, that if we can get people into church, why then of course, we can get them the Gospel after that.
B.K.: Ostensibly, thats what is stated.
D.M.: Of course, werent a lot of the courses what happened in these courses that you had to take 101, 201 and 301 ?
(D.M. states on the tape that these course numbers are 101, 102 and 103, where in B.K.s introduction they are different have altered the transcription to agree with B.K. J.S.). Did that take you into the Gospel itself?
B.K.: Some of it did. Some of it was around the Gospel, but then it was more geared, especially in the 301 course towards spiritual gifts assessments where they are actually doing psychological profiles on the people in the congregation and finding out where your strengths and where your weaknesses are and then trying to motivate you to use your areas of strength in ministry. So at the the nicest way to say it, I guess, was that it was fitting people to the task which was o.k. However, the more sinister side of it is that they are actually doing personality profiling on people and data basing people and sharing this information with other agencies.
D.M.: Other agencies within the church, of course?
B.K.: Well no, Governmental agencies.
D.M.: Wait a minute now, why would the church share anything with the government agency?
B.K.: Well, in order to first maintain 501C3 tax exempt status and we are seeing this more and more as the church is being partnered with the government so called faith based organizations in order to dole out social programs for the U.S. government. Both political parties have been involved with that, currently President Bush is pushing hard for this.
D.M.: Jesse Jackson, of course has been using that scam for a long time. He did very, very well. In fact, his mistress was very happy because he was paying for her salary and her accommodations out of the money he had apparently, most of it coming from Government grants to his multiple ministries. But be that as it may. Of course, does something like this work? In other words, does it have an impact on people beginning to come to the church more and more? Did the church begin to grow?
B.K.: It did begin to grow but I would not call it good growth. The youth group was the biggest amount of growth and the kids that were involved were pretty rebellious youth and were not really being challenged in the youth groups to live Godly lives.
D.M.: But of course, they were coming to church, werent they and at least hearing something about Jesus Christ? Or were they just sort of coming to church because it was entertaining?
B.K.: For the most part, it was entertaining and they did youth trips and did ice-skating and various areas that they would pay for with the churchs funds that was certainly a drawing card. Very little with respect to exposure to the Gospel, again really the command to lead Godly lives and I remember even one episode where one of the fathers in the church took his 16 year old daughter down to have a tattoo for her sixteenth birthday. And that was sort of common type of things we saw going on there.
D.M.: But of course, the children were entertained and it at least got them out of the streets. Did they sort of justify that at least they were not just hanging around in gangs; at least they were coming to church? Was that the type of rationale for what was going on?
B.K.: Right! That was a lot of the rationale which was a very pragmatic approach but unfortunately, again, as Christians, we are supposed to be in the world but not of the world and we are supposed to be again salt and light to the world. We are supposed to be different and these kids were not being told to hold up that standard and not being pushed or convicted at all of their activity to change and to live Godly lives.
D.M.: Of course, you left the church do you know what has happened to it since you have left has it grown since then or is it still pretty much like it was?
B.K.: It has grown, and then actually the pastor recently has left to become a church planter. I think he has gone to Ohio or somewhere to begin planting churches.
D.M.: All right, now of course you have had to find another church and did you eventually find a church where you felt comfortable?
B.K.: We did for a while, found for about 5 years and clearly the teaching there is much more well it is through the Bible and that is what we were really pushing the pastor to do. We had, in the church where we got saved we had been expositionally and unfortunately that small church folded and that is why we went to the second church. But we had a thirst for expositional teaching.
D.M.: By expositional teaching what, just the Word of God?
B.K.: By verse and then along, and then going in depth to what other verses would correspond with other areas of the Bible that would correspond with the verse that we would go through.
D.M.: But of course, you were adhering to this concept that the Bible is the Word of God, the infallible Word of God and you wanted to get into that rather than perhaps the entertainment and the other sort of good feeling part that comes with is this what you call a seeker friendly church?
B.K.: Correct. Right, we left first because we were being manipulated and pushed into leadership which we did not feel we were being led into by the Holy Spirit but in this 101, 201, 301 program you needed to do it and there was very much pressure involved in it and we felt that we were not led by the Spirit.
Secondly, right, the lack of teaching of the Word of God so we really wanted to get into learning the Word of God and because we believe in the sufficiency of the Word we believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ministry and if He sees fit and you dont need this man made program to do that. And a few years later, about 2-1/2 years later, we heard a man speak Mr. Dean Gotcher.
D.M.: Dean is a good friend of ours and why dont you tell our listeners what Dean said that impacted on you?
B.K.: Right, well he taught us about his study which is about the Hegelian Dialectic and what the Hegelian Dialectic is most simply stated as a synthesizing of two opposites and so in a seeker friendly church what you would see, is believers admixed with unbelievers and they would synthesize that is coming to consensus where truth becomes somewhat in the middle and so basically what happens is the believer ends up moved very slightly away from his original position of moral absolute the seeker or the unbeliever is moved slightly more towards faith and the people who are doing this movement think that is good enough and eventually they will come to faith through this process. But the thing that ends up sacrificed really is the truth of the Word of God, when it is proclaimed and when it is stated it is a fact and it is not questioned then some people, even when Jesus spoke, He talked about some believed, some scratched their heads and other ones turned away. That was the way that He always taught. He always taught it factually and it would either convict people or it would not convict people. It was never watered down or softened which was what the result is in this type of situation.
D.M.: Dont you think that people, ministers, who have taken this I firmly believe that they love the Lord, I think that they really want to be effective and want to be champions of the Word but isnt this more sold in a pattern that it is a technique that you hope will bring people to the Lord just by their association and coming to church and even if they are there, they will gradually begin moving towards Christianity. Not necessarily knowing the Word, not necessarily studying the Word, but it will sort of just come about.
B.K.: Exactly, exactly. So he spoke about this process and he stated that the church growth movement is based upon this process and so thats what struck me, I said, well this somehow this process was being used in this church that we came out of I dont know how, but somehow this ties in and that is what sparked my interest to investigate what was the roots of this whole idea who were the foundational thinkers behind it, what where they thinking and what was their final goal? That is what has spurred by study.
D.M.: So, what have you found as you begin looking into it and I know you have done a great deal of work and I appreciate so much the material you sent me. Why dont you just talk to the people in the audience because most of them are really unaware of the fact that this is a major movement that is sweeping Christendom today it is based upon teaching you how to succeed sort of like Dale Carnegie or many of the motivational psychology programmed introduced into corporations and the business world. How to be more successful, how to accomplish what the corporation wants to accomplish. That is at least what they sell you in the business world.
Why dont you go into the background of what you have uncovered and how this is being, as it were, sold to so many good people, and many of the good people, I am convinced, really do love the Lord but they seem to put success before the Scriptures, as it were.
B.K.: Yes, absolutely. You have described it well because it is the exact same framework and type of s philosophy that the total quality management in the work place is based on that the motivational speakers and self-esteem speakers pronounce. They really stress measurable results so they look at measurable results as far as baptisms, number of people in the church, that is the reason they put the chairs in stead of the pews because they can count their membership each Sunday and see as to whether or not they are getting more people in the church.
They obviously study tithing patterns, in fact, one of the consultant groups called the Leadership Network even have several resources as to how to maximize the amount of tithings.
D.M.: Wait on a minute, I thought the Holy Spirit, or our Lord was supposed to motivate us to give. In other words, we are to give, you know, what we felt motivated to give but we are being manipulated to give to the church?
B.K.: Oh yes, absolutely, there is a book 44 Ways to Maximize increase giving in your church. There is many by George Barnard (sic) and other materials by John Maxwell all about maximizing the tithe and actually studying different ways getting an offering, getting a pledge, getting a pledge and an offering they study all types of ways to again to maximize that because that is one of the measurable results.
D.M.: Now, how would you go about getting people to tithe?
B.K.: One of the things in these churches, if it is a smaller church and a consultant comes they will recommend that you build a fellowship hall first because if you build a fellowship hall first, then you can appeal to your congregation that we need funds to get a sanctuary and people that really tugs at the heart strings stronger if you build the sanctuary first. Then it is much more difficult to get people to either pledge more money to get a fellowship hall because they feel that a fellowship hall is more of a frill whereas a sanctuary is a necessity so they actually plan that on purpose.
D.M.: In other words, this is basically some sort of a business management concept.
A UNITY OF NAMES
B.K.: Very much a business management concept one of the major foundational thinkers is one of the major thinkers in business management and that is Mr. Peter Drucker (sic). Peter Drucker, he is one of the three main people who helped in building Rick Warrens Saddleback Church, he is also involved with Willow Creek, which is Bill Hybels Church in Illinois. Saddleback Church is in California. Those are the two major sister churches, I would say, and they both actually are based on thinking from Robert Schuller and they admit they gathered information from him on how to start their churches up. And so Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral they all began their churches by taking community surveys surveying the community in what they wanted to get out of a church and then tailoring their church around those community needs and wants.
Rick Warren even admits that he was polling the people in his community that if the person said they were either actively attending the church or were a believer, then he stopped asking any more questions because he didnt want to color the survey with those opinions. So he wanted to tailor his church only to the needs of lost sinners.
D.M.: O.K. Well thats good though so if you want to get the lost sinners into the church, dont we?
B.K.: Right, although the church is supposed to be for the perfecting of the saints, for the building up and edifying of the saints rather than for meeting the needs of the unbelievers and it is all even based on Abraham Maslows hierarchy of needs which are basically the three lusts described in the Bible the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Those are the basic hierarchy of needs though you are then tailoring your church after those types of needs.
D.M.: But of course, you do want to get the lost people into the church, dont you? In other words, or perhaps do you want the Lord to motivate them to come or the Holy Spirit to cause them to want to seek for the Word and the truth?
B.K.: Again it is all a human management style as opposed to something that is led by the Holy Spirit whereas, right, the typical thing would be that your church would be a body of believers and you would invite somebody who was an unbeliever and you would invite them on a individual basis and you would be moved by the Holy Spirit to preach to them and tell them the Word and invite them to church and they would come in. But they would be coming in to the church, which is tailored around the feeding of the Word as the most important thing. In fact, we are even taught that the pastor who labours in the Word is worthy of double honour because dealing with the Word is so important.
So that would be the environment that somebody would come into as opposed to an environment where the message is going to be minimized and softened so as to make it so that it is unoffensive [sic].
D.M.: All right now, of course this Peter Drucker that you speak of, a management consultant and he works with big corporations, major business corporations.
B.K.: His management school is over here at Claremont Graduate University would be only about 10 miles away from us, actually says that his management style is humanistic and that he believes that it is a human enterprise and the humanist manifesto is the absolute opposite or antithesis of Christianity. They deny creation, they embrace evolution, they assert that religion is only involved interactions between man and his environment, in other words, that man basically made is up of his own thinking. They deny the supernatural and they basically their whole goal is a utopia on earth which is everybody getting along, everybody having freewill to do everything that they want to which includes free abortion rights, freedom to have euthanasia, free sexuality and basically creating a utopian earth in the absence of God. That is the humanist agenda and that is actually the foundational thinker that Peter Drucker is.
D.M.: But then of course if you wanted to apply these concepts not the humanist concept is such that you describe but this technique towards expanding the church. Why would he do that? You would not think that a humanist, if he is indeed simply a humanist, would not be that interested in helping the church.
B.K.: Well again what he is helping the church do is that he is actually helping the church fit into this utopian goal. So he believes that the church can be an agent by which this end is accomplished, and he says specifically that organizations he says to consider all the problems facing the world look at world poverty, look at social inequalities and all of the bad things that happen. He says then managed solutions is imperative that managed solutions be used in order to achieve these types of goals.
D.M.: Sort of like faith-based partnership the government uses the church to reach its goal of government taking care of people, but of course the church fits into that.
D.M.: Bob, you were beginning to tell us about Peter Drucker, a humanist, apparently, who believes in basic humanist concepts who decided that he wanted to help the church to be more effective in meeting societys needs, so lets pick up the story from there.
B.K.: I was able to dig up his quote, and his quote is that the non-profit sector is where management today is most needed, where systematic principle, theory-based management can yield the greatest results fastest. Just think of the enormous problems facing the world - poverty, health care, education, international tension, and the need for managed solutions becomes loud and clear. So again he believes he can solve all of these world problems through managed solutions and he never mentions Christ. He does claim to be a Christian. He claims to be an Episcopalian Christian and actually even in Christianity Today it says if you examine his writings that his writings say little other than that about his faith, in other words, he is tends to keep his light under a bushel.
Clearly there is another quote that he has also, where he talks about the social universe. He says that the social universe has no natural laws and it is thus subject to continual change and he says then that what is thought to be factual today can then become misleading and actually completely confusing to you in no time at all. So he says as far as the social universe is concerned, as far as moral absolutes are concerned that there are no hard and fast rules there are no moral absolutes. Those are hardly the words of a Christian man.
D.M.: No they certainly are not. In fact, that is increasingly the way the world is
going there is no right, there is no wrong, there is simply shades of grey as it
were. And of course Christendom stands on the fact that there are absolutes, there is a
right and a wrong because there is a God who has laid out His rules for mankind. But we
seem to be getting away from that increasingly today and we make excuses for the criminal.
We seem to be much more concerned about animal abuse than we are about taking the life of
unborn children in the womb. A gentleman was recently sent to prison for 9 months because
he had mistreated cats and I disapprove of mistreating animals but nothing is ever said
about tearing living human beings and parting them from the womb. So there is something
wrong about the way that society is going and you would think the church would of course
be leading efforts to bring these things up and yet of course, many times the silence of
the church is deafening.
B.K.: I dont know just how he got affiliated with them in the first place, although again both of them acknowledge that he was with them in their formal stages and helping to influence them with respect to beginning their churches. In fact, Rick Warren, he said that three people who supported his church he said Tom Patterson was one of the strongest supports along with Peter Drucker and Bob Buford (sic) of our purpose-driven church strategy in the formative years of Saddleback so that is a quote from Warren. He said he was there right from the start.
D.M.: Buford that name is familiar where does he come in? Who is he?
B.K.: Right, he is a gentleman; he is actually the first president of the Drucker Foundation for Non Profit Management. He is the owner of Buford Television in Texas and he is a large businessman, an entrepreneur and he also wrote a book called Half Time. In that book he actually refers to Peter Drucker as the man who formed my mind and he says that in his office he has two main books he has a Bible and he has Peter Druckers book. He uses his Bible for spiritual things and he uses Druckers book for worldly things which my Bible says we are supposed to use the Bible for all of our affairs.
D.M.: I certainly would not want to argue with you there. Of course, then this idea has really caught hold. My understanding is that there are really tens of thousands of churches that have taken on this concept and of course it has really done in sort of a stealth matter they dont really tell the congregation what they are going to do, they just sort of do it and one day the minister arrives without a coat still got a tie and a white shirt on and then before long, maybe a month or two, he doesnt even have a tie on and then it is really done very subtly.
Dont they change the music very subtly everything is done so that the people really wont understand what is happening.
B.K.: Right, the other thing they do, is that they will split the service and they will have a traditional service for the elderly people who dont want to go into these changes and then they will have a second, more contemporary service for the youth. So the pastor, in between services will take off his coat and tie and dress more casually for the second service. So there is a separation of the elderly people in the church and eventually they will either scatter or die off and then they can go to the contemporary service for everybody.
D.M.: All right, so we have seen this sort of thing happen. Is there a different message thats preached between the two services? In other words, there is one that is parallel to the traditional message where sinners are saved by grace or is it sort of beginning to move into the same more say acceptable. I was going to say more watered down. Say acceptable to society type of service, are both services pretty much the same one traditional and one is more acceptable.
GET RID OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANS TO GAIN NUMBERS
B.K.: I believe that one remains more traditional. You have to realize that a lot of the elderly and more traditional people in the church are also a lot of the larger tithers to the church and so they dont want to change things too dramatically as far as those people are concerned because they can lose a lot of their financial base. Although in some of the books there is another book recommended by Rick Warren called Transitioning Leading Your Church Through Change and that is written by Dan Southerland and in that book he talks about how his church went from 500 people when he implemented his program that it dropped to 250 and now he has gone back up to about 3000 and that if he was to do it again, he would trade the 250 people for the church of 3000 in a New York minute. So he could not care less if he divided the church and got rid of the traditionally minded people because once he has this more acceptable gospel, this more acceptable gospel is also it has a broad appeal.
D.M.: Of course, what about people in the churches I mean Robert Schuller who I think is probably the prototype of this. He has 4,000 usually in the Crystal Cathedral or 5,000 and two or three thousand outside. I had a friend of mind there who went to see it when they had Gorbachev there and he compared Gorbachev, the murderer of Afghanistan and he compared him with Abraham Lincoln and really praised this brutal man who should be up on more war-crimes trials for aggressive war.
When he was the premier when they were dropping bombs there in Afghanistan, which were shaped like toys, the little kids would pick them up and blow off their arms and legs, a war of attrition and terror carried out against the Afghan people when Michael Gorbachev was the president of or the dictator of Russia. It is the only reason they got out, it was not because of any altruism at all, they lost so many helicopters because we had given these surface-to-air missiles to the Afghans and they could shoot down the helicopter gun ships that were coming in and machine-gunning the civilians. Now that is why they got out but I mean when Robert Schuller invites Michael Gorbachev and compares him to Abraham Lincoln and yet the people were just going along with that. People were standing on their feet and applauding wildly when Gorbachev was introduced to the people.
Certainly Robert Schullers message appeals to people across the world and it is not one of sin and redemption he certainly never talks about sin or that we are sinners saved by grace.
So you bring in Michael Gorbachev into the church and people are cheering wildly. Here is a quote from Michael I am not ashamed to say anywhere in public that I am a communist and believe in the socialist idea. I will die believing this and will pass into the next world believing this. Thats what he says and yet Schuller, when he was there last October 15th says I know that he calls himself an atheist, but 11 years ago was one of the most powerful man in the world God used this atheist in a mighty way. He was talking about how Michael had allowed Schullers program to be broadcast widely within the Soviet Union.
D.M.: Well of course, the thing is if people are not convicted, they are not going to change. If Christianity is simply a do-good religion, and a feel good about yourself and feel good about other people and want to help other people, that of course is the philosophy not of the Gospel according to Mark, but according to Marks.
B.K.: Right, that is a good point. The way that Gorbachev fits into all of this and this whole direction that this is heading to is that Gorbachev has his State Of The World Forum my wife was actually able to attend that with a friend Joan Veon last September back at the United Nations Headquarters.
D.M.: What did she run into Joan Paris and Jeannie Solomon (sic) who were there?
B.K.: Yes, she did.
D.M.: They were representing us at Liberty here so you were in good company then.
B.K.: Yes, absolutely. In a small circle of good company and a large circle of bad company.
D.M.: Of course we see Gorbachev, as you say, Stephen Rockefeller and Maurice Strong all joining hands together to write The Earth Charter, the plan for the New World with the commandments that will replace the 10 Commandments of old.
B.K.: Yes, and the Hegelian Dialectic is the means of getting this is actually a form of brain washing and so you just get people doing this process, doing this small group face-to-face interactions where everybody says what they think and what they feel and then at the end everybody reaches a consensus.
D.M.: Now is this what these breakout groups 101, 201, 301 are small group/consensus groups?
B.K.: Those are leadership-training groups but then they do require part of the covenants you do have to sign in the covenant signing as you go through is that you do sign a covenant to be committed to purchase a paid-in small groups. And the small groups are facilitated meetings by trained facilitators and they water down the Word of God.
D.M.: Now, why would you have to sign a covenant? I mean, I would think that this is a voluntary thing you go to church, you go to church because you want to because you believe in it, but once you sign something you know it takes things down the line occur, things you dont agree with, but you have already signed an agreement for things you dont even understand what you are signing into or the implications as to where this is all leading. Isnt this sort of like taking a Masonic oath for things you dont even know what Masonry is all about?
B.K.: Right! Actually, some of the diagrams that they use for the 101, 201 and 301 are actually concentric circles where you start out on the outside and start working your way in which is the structure of many of the secret societies. Like an onionskin where you keep going one layer deeper and deeper into the skin and closer to the core.
Absolutely and that is one of the things that is much like a cult because the people then feel this great constraint that they cannot leave and so they feel locked in. I have talked with people on the phone about this all the time and they say But I signed. I say what are you going to do now knowing what you know you have to either please the Lord or you have to go along with the covenant which you signed that you know is not pleasing to the Lord. He will forgive you for signing that covenant and your breaking it if you are breaking it for all the right reasons.
D.M.: Well of course this is exactly what happens when they get into Masonry. They are afraid to get out they have sworn these oaths, all their friends are involved you know, it is part of their way of life. Suddenly, to have to break with Masonry, you know, means you are breaking with the things that make life so pleasant. Of course, you may come under tremendous pressure if you do leave.
B.K.: Yes, this is the exact same type of thing and however, again they use the psychological argument against you that now you are denying Christ if you are denying us and you are turning your back on Him and so that is a tremendous psychological force that is being used.
D.M.: Now do all the churches require you to sign the covenant? Or is it just certain ones or is this just a standard approach that is being implemented all across the world today? All across America today, I should say.
150,000 PASTORS TRAINED IN PURPOSE-DRIVEN PROGRAMS - USA!
B.K.: It is a very standard approach. We have heard of church after church that is doing this thing an they bring us their diagrams of their leadership programs which are either the concentric circles or the other one is that it is a baseball diamond the four stages of the process 101 through to 401 all bases of a baseball diamond.
And so we see a pattern repeated over and over again. Pastor Warren has trained over 150,000 pastors and church leaders in this church growth principle.
D.M.: 150,000? 150,000?
B.K. Yes. And he has also sold more than a million copies of The Purpose Driven Church book.
D.M.: Well, that is a lot of people. Now, how many churches do you think there are in America today that have gotten into this altered form of Christianity? Because it really is a sort of a watered-down Christianity as a form of Christianity uses a lot of the words of Christianity but of course as far as sin, damnation and the need for a Saviour, that is not the major thrust of the message, is it?
Clearly this is not a movement of the Holy Spirit but a man made organizational technique and again what the endplay will be is eventually it will be to where you can unify with people of other faiths and in order for this greater goal of world peace in the utopian society. It will water down Christianity where Christianity is no longer salt and light but is actually acceptable to the Muslin, acceptable to the Jew, acceptable to the Mormon; acceptable to all of these faiths, which are not again which are not true faith.
D.M.: I do see that this is part of the great apostasy. Are you concerned that this might be part of the great apostasy that is described in the latter days?
B.K.: Absolutely. I believe that it is. It is very wide spread.
D.M.: Do we have any idea? You said over 150,000 or 160,000 people trained how many churches have gone this way?
B.K.: Huge numbers. I mean huge, huge numbers.
D.M.: You are talking about tens of thousands.
D.M.: We are told Dr. Klenck, that this is going to change society. They are going to take back society for Jesus Christ. Is it working, is it succeeding is there any place where this is changing our communities in society, making people better, making people more god-like?
B.K.: Well, again a lot of this appears good, for instance like one of the groups that is often tied with many of these churches is Habitat for Humanity and the goal is very admirable if you take a needy family and help them to build a home and get them into it. The problem with it is that, in on the local level, people think they are doing a wonderful thing. However, 10% of the money goes to the international group Habitat for Humanity International and they were actually present at the Habitat 2 Conference at the United Nations back in Istanbul and so it also is something that is again it is one of the goals of the United Nations which is Shelter Equity and what they mean is they want to see everybody world-wide to have a home.
Now thats fine, for us Americans it may mean actually putting other people into our homes in order to spread the wealth world-wide and of course we know that the U.N. agenda is all basically global socialism and they want to completely, even the United States even lower our standard of living and make it even with a global standard of living.
Habitat for Humanity is a ecumenical organisation, they give the home without regard to the peoples faith and they dont necessarily allow or encourage proselytizing so it is again a deception on a local level and people from the local churches are you know they have a heart for the Lord and they want to help and serve but they dont realize the bigger agenda that they are also funding, which is basically funding the demise of Christianity while they are doing it.
D.M.: Fine. Thank you so much. That is one of our supporters back in Louisiana. The question are we going to have to go underground or is the Pope Catholic? Of course the Pope is Catholic and of course the church is going to come under persecution here in America. In fact I am told that the Christians in China pray for persecution of the American Church to try to once again re-kindle that spirit of Christianity that they live under in China which has brought, they estimate, to 80 million people close to the Lord.
They have a lot more Christians in China real Christians than we have here in America. We have an awful lot of watered down people who go to church but not who are really willing to give their lives for the Lord. I wonder how many of you in the listening audience tonight would be willing to give your life for the Lord tonight?
The question that Roy raised is you know, are we going to have to go underground one day and are we going to have to begin to prepare for that right now?
B.K.: Well, we are in home church, and there are more and more people who are doing that. We have hymnbooks and we sing hymns. We dont have anybody talented with musical instruments at this point, so we just sing and just have a expositional that is chapter by chapter, verse by verse and we just go through the Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and it is a real blessing. It is just a small group and we are not concerned about numbers and we dont have any tithing. We dont worry about motivations that way.
Until they stop allowing us to gather together, then we will go underground if we are not allowed to gather together. It is one of the most frustrating things for me because as I evangelize people and they come to faith, then where do you send them? And that is one of the biggest problems I have with these big evangelistic crusades like the Billy Graham or Greg Wories (sic) crusades is that they often send these people right off to Saddleback Church, they send them off to all types of churches that are teaching all kinds of doctrines and all kinds of watered-down messages and so you get them in and then you send them off to the wolves and I have a real problem with that.
So I try to show them that the only thing that they can rely upon reliably is the Word of God and unfortunately, I think with the big mega-churches, so many of these pastors are on such pedestals that the people just look to them for everything and then even as I speak out about what these people are up to, a lot of them do not want to hear it because it is knocking the person that they have put on a pedestal is being knocked off that pedestal. We shouldnt have anybody on a pedestal to start with.
DM.: And I just want to comment that in recent years, the Southern Baptist Association has really come under good leadership and that is why you hear these Texas Baptists have moved away from it and they are constantly being attacked.
They must be doing something right if they are being attacked by so many of the liberals today. So, we will just have to wait and see how that pans out. But I do believe that there are some really good people in positions of leadership in the Southern Baptist Association for the first time in many, many years.
You know you have been very outspoken bringing out this consensus, the Hegelian Technique that is really gotten into the church today to make it more acceptable sell it like you would a bar of soap or something of that sort. We want a Christianity that is saleable, of course, it doesnt seem that we are brought alive by the Holy Spirit; we are relying upon mans approach to spread Christianity. Would you agree with that?
B.K.: I would agree with that and although again so many of the pastors become seduced by this because the church consultant comes in and recommends that well, weve got these techniques we know are successful because they are successful in the world, why not market Christianity and get a broad appeal and you will do things for the Lord.
You will get a large number of people in and you know, the more people that are saved, the better and which they dont disagree with. But what they dont understand that with that whole package, is the foundational thinkers behind it are driven by Satan and his end point is the destruction of the church. Thats what we need to be aware of, that this is not just a matter of being smart and using techniques that the world says are o.k. because these techniques are rooted in evil.
The Lord tells us in Matthew Chapter 7 or 17, I think it is Matthew Chapter 7 that an evil root cannot bear good fruit and the roots of this are satanic and we cannot have any part of it. It is leaven and any little bit of this in the church will destroy the church.
D.M.: Well, I share your concern. This is why I asked you to come on. You have been doing this for a long time. Have you come under any criticism or attack for doing, speaking out against this very successful marketing technique.
B.K.: Not dramatic, I mean clearly, whenever I speak it is controversial, especially when pastors who are mentioned who people think are godly men and you know, and are supporting their (the pastors) ministries and all these other aid organizations. For me to criticize them, they think that is just absolutely terrible.
Some of their typical responses is that we are dividing the flock or that we are causing dissention within the church or that we are dividing the Body of Christ, and so on. Others have said, one thing that is interesting because I have had a few letters from pastors who have gotten excerpts of letters from pastors in responses from them and interestingly they never challenge my facts.
They state that either I have twisted the facts so that the people who have made the statements that I have turned their words around so that to make them say something that they dont really believe in or that I have gone in with a preconceived conclusion and then only added in those facts and only dug up those facts which support my preconceived conclusion. When quite on a contrary, the statements that I quote are very representative of the works.
In other words, when I quote Rick Warren and he says that pastors he thinks are the most under-rated groups of change agents today and all of his writings are about change technology and again this Hegelian Dialectic this continual change. You know, for me to make that statement it is very representative of the rest of the work that he does.
D.M.: Of course, this idea of being a change agent in other words, this is an individual who has got to alter the perception of the people who follow them.
B.K.: Right. And the idea of a change agent is that they not only alter that persons perception but they alter the perception without the person realizing that they are being changed.
D.M.: What a cult leader does?
B.K.: Yes. Absolutely.
D.M.: But, I mean the thing that really disturbs me is and we will get back on this, is the fact that it is done very deceptively. In other words, it happened so slowly that most people didnt even realize what was happening. Little bit by little bit the music changed, you know wonderful praise songs that I think some of the modern praise songs are really wonderful and they really are praising. But then of course, in comes the increasing tempo and the beat and the changing of the beat itself. This begins to alter the physiological reaction of the people to the point where pretty soon the people are beginning to dance in the aisles of the church and I am seeing this and thinking what in heavens name is going on? But music can have almost a hypnotic effect on individuals, cant it?
B.K.: Absolutely. One of the ingredients that they use the other thing that they use for deception in order to deceive the people, they overwhelm the senses many of these churches have numerous video screens. Rick Warrens actually has 5 video screens up at the front of the sanctuary. They recommend that the pastor use a mobile microphone and move around a lot, walk around a lot and so what happens is again the senses are being overwhelmed as one comes into this whole kind of a circus atmosphere and so the discernment of the message is very difficult to discern exactly what is being said. So in the message the biggest thing is half-truths in other words, God is a God of love is spoken but God as a righteous judge is not spoken.
Well, they can say that God is a God of love and they can say check that out in the Bible all of that is true. But Peter Drucker himself says that the most important thing in communication is to listen to what isnt being said. So he understands this technique and they use it dramatically. They overwhelm the senses and they only teach in half-truths. Even when we go to a court of law we are sworn at the bench to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because you are not allowed to go and speak the truth if it is half-truth. You are not allowed to do that because you could manipulate a jury so the legal system understands that concept.
The other thing that happens then like you said, the music tends to numb the senses and break down the barriers to accepting the message and then many of the messages are also subliminal. Lee Strobel (sic) spoke at the Saddleback Church while I was there and he was talking about world hunger and world problems.
D.M.: We were talking about the secret church movement. Bob, you were saying of course, you have been accused of distorting the things of altering what they are trying to do and a lot of men who are involved in this, I am sure, love the Lord. I am sure that they are really trying to do good. Of course they bought into a humanistic approach to spreading Christianity and putting more faith in a sales technique than in faith in the Holy Spirit. Would say that might be the case?
B.K.: Yes, absolutely, and so at least initially, I would say that they had the right motivation although later on at some point they have to overcome resistance to this and thats there is a point where these pastors become accountable. For instance I will get back to that statement from Lee Strobel but for instance, many of these church consulting firms charge between $20,000. -$50,000 in order to bring this program into the church. So there is first a very large incentive on the pastors part to implement the program and for it to be a successful program.
There always is opposition to it. Once the pastor goes to bring this program in, there is always opposition. In this book called Transitioning leading your church through change it has a whole chapter on dealing with opposition, how to marginalize people and to minimize them and to neutralize them.
D.M.: How do they go about doing that lets imagine that somebody objects to the music in the church or somebody sees what is happening is concerned because they are taking people away from the traditional message of the church. How do you deal with these people?
D.M.: But what happens if the people dont want to leave and it is their church, they have been there and invested a lot of their life and their money in the church and they would be speaking out against what is going on.
B.K.: They will be marginalized. The pastors will talk them down; they will even preach about it, they will even preach about the people who are dissenters. We have heard of pastors preaching bout blessed subtractions prayed people out of the church. We have heard a pastor do that, that he actively prayed that certain people would leave and so at some point, yes, the pastor starts out with this noble cause of wanting to get a lot of people and do a lot of great things for God. But at some point there is a point where they meet this opposition and then it raises its ugly head and they start to do things, which are unthinkable.
D.M.: They really do, actively then, try to get people to leave the church.
B.K.: If the people are resistant to the change. One thing is that you try again, it is a very manipulative technique and they have studied it dramatically. They have studied and proven that if your 7 best friends are in church you wont leave the church it doesnt matter how bad the doctrine gets, so their whole goal is to nurture these human relationships. Get people involved in social ministries they have got surfing ministries and bicycling and bowling and bridge, crochet and everything to get you with a circle of friends because you wont leave because you would break up those relationships. So human relationship takes precedent over relationship with God, which is a humanistic idea anyway.
D.M.: Then of course the minister will preach against those who are speaking out against what is happening?
B.K.: Absolutely. There is one sin in these secret-sensitive churches and that is the sin of disunity. The person who is trying to hold to the Biblical absolute that is being accused of disunity. So eventually, what happens is that the person who, like you said, this resistor, what happens to this resistor who doesnt want to leave the church, ends up doing one of two things. Ends up leaving the church or he ends up knuckling-under, caving-in or compromising and being miserable there and falling into the whole trap of the program.
Now back to that quote by Strobel, the manipulation in the message, for instance he was talking about world hunger and he was saying that misguided nationalism is the cause of world hunger. We have enough food world-wide and we could solve the world-wide hunger problem, but it is misguided nationalism that causes this. This is a subliminal type of message that people walk away with saying Oh yeah, you know the U.S. really ought to give up its sovereignty because sovereign nations are causing these problems in the world. The reality is that is not the truth. The truth is that it is corrupt governments that have caused poverty. I mean we have sent huge planeloads and trucks loads of aid to various impoverished nations and it has ended up in the hands of the leaders who have either sold it for their own gain or whatever. But it has not been trickling down to the people that need it the most. It is corrupt governments that have added to the worldwide hunger problems and it doesnt have anything to do with misguided nationalism or the fact that a nation such as the U.S. wants to hang on to its sovereignty.
D.M.: I remember when we had the famine in Somalia a few years ago and it wasnt as though there was plenty of food there, it was just that they had no means of getting it distributed because of the political unrest and of course Africa is one of the most lush productive continents in the entire world. But of course it is because we have financed corrupt dictators there and kept them in power that the people are impoverished and constantly involved in wars and many of them living in poverty.
So, people have to understand that we will give you one explanation, but it is very, very seldom the right explanation for what is going on.
B.K.: Yes, there is a couple of points that I wanted to make about that one is that as far as Scriptures, we have spoken of several people talking about working from within and trying to stay within and turn this around and the people that we have met, none of them have been able to do that. They have all actually caved in and gone along with the program. And thats the idea that they are staying there for the relationships and that ends up taking precedence. So there is no Scripture with respect to working within. It is always come out from among them and be ye separate separate yourself from among them, the people that are teaching false doctrine dont sit underneath them because it is dangerous to stay in there. It is a danger that we must heed and a warning that we must heed.
Secondly, this idea that God is love. Actually there was an invitation at that Gorbachev State of the World Forum where it was titled God is Love and it had six of the major world religions all around a globe and it said You are invited to join us in daily meditation.
Well that god is love is a dialectic god. He is a god of consensus of which all the world religions can agree with. Its the God of judgment and sin and damnation and hell that does not go along with the flow of everybody getting along and going along. So that is the dialectic god and that everybody agrees with. The god of the Muslims is a god of love, the god of the Hindu and Buddhism and everybody is a god of love. But not all those gods send people to a literal burning hell if they refuse to repent and follow Him.
D.M.: Amen! The idea that Christianity is the true and only religion is repulsive to all of the people who hate Jesus Christ.
B.K.: It is negative and divisive yes.
B.K.: Actually, they are sadly small. 25 to 50 people at the most. Right, we had one in Dallas, Texas, we had one in Florida and we have one up coming in April in Ohio and sadly no, this is not a message that people are flocking to hear. It is not a secret-sensitive message I am afraid. However, every speaking opportunity there is a small number of people, I mean, and they are heart-broken and they have been in it, they have known there is a problem and they couldnt put their finger on it exactly where it came from. I mean, they are in tears, they have joy that they have finally realized what it is that they have been battling against for a long period of time and now know the answer to it and are coming out.
And so, it is not a popular message. There is a remnant being separated for righteousness and even though it has not a wide appeal, it is the few people that I do this for.
D.M.: Well, I am just hoping that the number will increase. After all, it is in the Lords hands and we are to do our best to get the message out to tell people the truth and thats really the beauty of talk radio and of course what we do and of course this will be circulated across the country and we will make sure that some of these tapes get out to our followers and we do have a fair number of them. People can of course go to our web site and get the archive programs off the web site and get the tapes.
I believe that rather than going to all the effort to travel all around the country, from my point of view, I am coming down to Southern California on Wednesday to speak on Thursday but I firmly believe that being behind the microphone this is why I appreciate so much your coming on to be on our program Bob, because we are reaching many hundreds, many thousands of people out there. They are not calling in tonight but they are out there, they are listening and I know that many of them are in total agreement with what you are saying.
Many people have seen these things happen in their church and did not understand what was happening. It was sort of like Christian, I knew it was wrong this new music that was coming out but I couldnt put my finger on it until I talked to Jack Wheaton (sic) red his books it was so obvious what was happening. Now I have talked to other people professional musicians who simply reinforced that understanding there is an organized effort to use music to destroy Christendom.
B.K.: Yes, absolutely.
D.M.: We have a couple of minutes left. What are your parting thoughts for our listeners tonight? And you have a telephone number or web site or anything you would like to get out?
B.K.: Gives out his home phone number. 6263396453 E-mail
firstname.lastname@example.org I would encourage if there is any material, quotations and references
that I can get out to people, I have video or audio tapes that I can get out to people
again to get the message out.
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