Called into the debate between Dr. James White and Harold Camping on
7/31/09.
After the two day debate between James White and Mr. Camping, James
White took callers on the following Thursday and Mr. Camping took callers on
that Friday. I had been able to listen to James White on Thursday, but on
Friday, I was traveling back to Florida from Alabama at the time the program
aired. I was not able to listen to the program live, so I was not aware that
they were handling Mr. Camping’s calls very differently from the way that
they had handled the calls to James White. They gave the callers to James
White a lot of air time, but they did not do the same for Mr. Camping. He
might as well have had his mute button with him. Nevertheless, I am grateful
that the Lord enabled me to get through and at least voice some of what I
had observed from the two day debate and enable Mr. Camping to address it.
Below I will transcribe what I did manage to say to Mr. Camping and also add
what I would have liked to have been able to continue to say. I would like
to comment that Mr. Camping only commented briefly and pretty hastily went
on to the next call. He also admitted that the two figures that he gave
COULD NOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE. WAKE UP, CAMPING DISCIPLES!!! THIS IS THE
VERY THING CAMPING CONDEMNED THE CHURCHES FOR, PRESENTING THINGS THAT WERE
NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!
Caller number 4 about 43 minutes and 57 seconds into the program on
7/31/09:
Mr. Camping, the Lord, through His Word, saved me back in 1982 and
through His Word He convicted me to leave the Catholic Church, and He
convicted me that He spoke to me through His Word and could teach me through
His Holy Spirit. By His electing sovereign grace, He opened my eyes to see
God’s WORK of salvation in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ on my behalf.
Shortly afterward, the Lord led me to tune into Family Radio and I learned
from you how to use a concordance and be able to compare Scripture with
Scripture. I heartily thank you for that.
Back in those days, you were careful with using words in their context.
You stressed that everything must come from the Bible. I have listened to
the two days of debate and several things leap out at me. Your closing
admonition at the end of the two days of debate was “I hope that people will
remember that there are 365.2422 days and do their own arithmetic,
multiplying 1,978 and what do they get and breaking that down and then
you’ll find that it all ties in perfectly with the Bible.”
First of all, 365.2422 IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE and 1,978 IS NOT FOUND
IN THE BIBLE EITHER. There is no way that you can justify these numbers that
do not come directly from the Bible. Stating that I can check any
Astronomical journal for the number 365.2422 shows that you are relying on
yourself and man’s knowledge. You have to go outside the Bible to get that
calculation. The Bible alone is NOT sufficient to come to your conclusions.
Then you want us to multiply these two numbers and then factor the
result and somehow these factors are going to give us a spiritual message
and the Truth of the Scriptures. Yes, the Lord has numbers in the Bible, and
yes, in certain places He does some simple factoring, but it is GOD Who has
done the factoring and the presenting of the numbers. God has done the work
of factoring and presenting specific numbers and then God may open our eyes
to see certain patterns such as either judgment or mercy for the number 5
depending on the context. But in your exhortation, you are stating that YOU
have done the WORK of figuring out these numbers and you are exhorting
others to do this work also. I have heard you many times defend your
calendar by stating that many have “checked out YOUR WORK”. The Bible is
crystal clear that we are NOT to be depending on the works of our own hands
or we are under God’s wrath. We are to depend solely on the work of Christ
and what He has written. Mathematical computations are NOT comparing
spiritual with spiritual. It is a fleshly talent and NOT spiritual
discernment. That ability is not given to all, especially the mentally
limited! However, the mentally limited are not spiritually limited if they
are one of God’s elect and they will see and hear the Work of Jesus Christ
as the Word is read or heard by them.
This is where I was interrupted, but if I had been given the
opportunity, I would have liked to have continued on with the following:
Jesus Christ, in referring to His redemptive Work, stated: “In the
volume of the Book it is written of Me.” This is what you used to focus on
in finding what you call the spiritual meaning. I still see this message
throughout every page of Scripture and have been dismayed as I see you
replace more and more of Scriptures which speak of the work of Christ with
your calendar which is the works of your own hands.
One of the ways you began to do this was by teaching that Jerusalem
surrounded by armies meant the corporate church (Jerusalem) was taken over
by Satan and so we were commanded to depart out. You keep telling us that we
are to let the Bible define our words, but when we do this for the word
“Jerusalem”, nowhere do we see the Bible defining Jerusalem as the
corporate NEW TESTAMENT church.
However, the Bible DOES define Jerusalem in Galatians 4 as either those
condemned by the works of their own hands (represented by Hagar) or Mt.
Sinai or he that was born after the flesh and is called “Jerusalem which now
is” or Jerusalem is defined in Galatians 4 as he that was born after the
Spirit (by the works of Christ) represented by Mount Zion and called
“Jerusalem above”. We are told to cast out the bondwoman and her son. That
is the Gospel call to flee the works of our own hands and flee to Christ.
Mr. Camping, the Jerusalem that is surrounded by armies that we are to
depart out of are the works of our own hands (including relying on all
fleshly works of our own hands such as your calendar). This is consistent
with the message of the entire Bible. It is the message that salvation is
only to be found in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I would also like to encourage anyone who has listened to the debates to
check out what Mr. Camping is teaching with regard to Hebrews 10:24 where it
states “let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works.”
Because that passage is used in the context of not forsaking the assembling
together, Mr. Camping is now teaching that “provoke” here which is Strong’s
#3948 is used only one other time and there it is translated as
“contention”. He is stating that this shows that there is contention in the
churches and using it to support the demise of the church. This, however
does not take into consideration the immediate context of the verse which is
to “provoke unto love and to good works”. This does not denote dissension
among those involved.
In Mr. Camping’s defense of his teaching on this, he stated that
“provoke is used only one other place in the Scriptures in Acts 15:39 to
define the word and it is translated as contention, but he selectively used
the context of Acts 15:39 to define the word, but totally ignored the
context of Hebrews 10:24. He went on to use other verses later in Hebrews 10
to bolster his teaching (in other words he validated using context there
because it supported what he wanted to teach) while he refused to recognize
that his conclusions were not in harmony with the immediate context Hebrews
10:24 “provoke unto love and to good works.”
Resting in the works of the Lord Jesus and not any other man’s work,